TL;DR
This roundtable explored how to intentionally shape culture during rapid growth, emphasizing that culture is not static—it’s built through everyday decisions, behaviors, and leadership modeling. The panelists shared insights on trust, hiring alignment, competency management, and the importance of consistency in cultural norms.
- Culture Is a Decision-Making Framework: Culture guides how people behave, make decisions, and interact. It’s shaped by what’s rewarded, tolerated, and modeled—especially by leadership.
- Trust and Consistency Are Foundational: Organizational trust grows when reactions are predictable and consistent. Without it, people won’t feel safe to speak up or take risks.
- Intentionality Matters: Culture doesn’t just happen—it must be designed and nurtured. Leaders must be deliberate about the values they want to uphold and how those show up in practice.
- Hiring for Cultural Fit Is Critical: Rapid growth can dilute culture. Screening for alignment with cultural principles—not just technical skills—is essential to maintain cohesion.
- Culture Drives Strategy: Strategy evolves from culture, not the other way around. A healthy, aligned culture enables strategic clarity and execution.
- Competency and Safety as Culture Builders: Embedding verified competency and prioritizing safety can transform toxic cultures into thriving ones.
- Power Dynamics and Psychological Safety: Leaders must recognize how their power affects team dynamics. Creating space for honest feedback and appreciation builds trust and resilience.
Guest Links
Jeff Griffiths: LinkedIn, YouTube
Johanna Rothman: eponymous website, CreateAdaptableLife.com, LinkedIn
Rebecca Parsons: LinkedIn
Ross Smith: LinkedIn, LinkTree
Autotranscript
This transcript was autocreated by AI (I know, right?) and has not been edited by a human. Errors may exist.
Michael Hunter 00:00
Record. This is the uncommon leadership round table where we bring smart people together to discuss hard topics in a fun way. I am your host, Michael Hunter, with uncommon teams, and joining me today are Rebecca Parsons, who has more tech experience than she cares to admit, working across all aspects of computing, she has eclectic interests, including evolutionary computation, evolutionary architecture, AI, programming languages and systems. She served as CTO for ThoughtWorks for about 17 years, and is a frequent conference speaker Rebecca in 30 seconds or so. What is your definition of culture,
Rebecca Parsons 00:52
the decision making framework that a group forms, that guides decision making.
Michael Hunter 01:06
Great. Thank you. Also joining us today is Ross Smith, who is author of AI revolution in customer service and support, and AI in the classroom is the worldwide support leader of the AI first team at Microsoft, a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts in the UK, co founder of the future world Alliance and Seattle women in tech Consortium, and the Sequoia fellow of the American Indian Science and Engineering Society. Ross, what is your 32nd or so definition of culture?
Ross Smith 01:45
You know, I was, I was, I had the Thanks Rebecca for taking it first. I had a little bit of time to prepare. But I kind of, what I came up with is kind of the vibe, right of a team, particularly, you know, our AI first team is a relatively new team and very diverse. And so bringing together and bringing together different perspectives and forming a shared culture with sort of a single or a shared direction really enables sort of the vibe or how people work together. As Rebecca said, it is informs decision making and helps to build trust when you can have a defined shared culture people feel more comfortable in their own skin.
Michael Hunter 02:32
Great. Thank you, Ross, we also have today Johanna Rothman, also known as the pragmatic manager, Johanna offers Frank, practical advice that you can immediately apply to your product development challenges. She helps leaders and teams uncover effective alternatives to their current product development practices, since one size never fits all. She works with her clients to explore options for what and how to change the results are leaders and teams who learn to collaborate and focus on outcomes that mattered. Explore all of her many, many books and even more, writing at J rothman.com, and create adaptable life.com. Johanna, how do you describe culture in a short amount of time.
Johanna Rothman 03:24
I actually really like Edgar shines general approach to culture. He did not say this, but this is what I got from his writing. Culture is what people can discuss. Are the things they cannot and cannot discuss, how do we treat each other, how what is acceptable behavior, and then what does the organization reward? Because rewards drive a whole lot of behavior.
Michael Hunter 03:56
Yes, indeed. Thank you, Johanna, and also joining us today is Jeff Griffiths, who is the Managing Director and co founder of workforce strategies International, a management consulting for firm from Canada. They focus on helping clients supply competency and people based approaches to maximize their operating results and impact. He’s had a varied career in the military as an officer in the Canadian Air Force, in the business world and manufacturing and aerospace, and as a Certified Management Consultant for the last 20 plus years. Jeff, what is your succinct description of culture.
Jeff Griffiths 04:43
I mean it for me in a few words, it’s the way we do things around here, right? It’s a very organic it’s a constantly evolving notion, but it’s very much people based and the way those people. All work together, interact with each other, share with each other. That’s for me, that’s that that’s culture, and it changes constantly as people come and leave, and as as the organization changes. And it’s in many cases it seems to be driven from the top
Michael Hunter 05:19
that definitely does. Thank you. Jeff and I partner with top tech leadership teams to create extraordinary cultures. For 35 years across six continents, I’ve helped leaders at companies like Microsoft, Salesforce and Tableau sustain the changes they need to make this levels up the quality of their decision making, relationships and ability to greet change like an old friend. You might say, I’ve done this in three distinct phases. I started out debugging code, then I switched to debugging people, and now I help people and teams debug themselves and my short definition of culture is how we lift each other up and how we stay out of each other’s way.
06:14
You can tell you had more time to think about that than
Michael Hunter 06:19
I had more than five minute warning on what to say for that. Yes, yeah, indeed. And I’ve also been talking with a lot of people about this for a lot of years now, so that has evolved many times, and that’s what we’re talking about today. How do we shape strong cultures during rapid growth. And Ross, why don’t we start you off? You’d start us off trying to shape a strong culture with, I know, very rapid growth in your team right now.
Ross Smith 06:54
I think the big one for me is organizational trust, right? Authenticity. People need to be able to predict what’s going to happen. And so you know if, if I bring bad news to my boss and they scream at me, if they do that consistently, I’m prepared, and I can trust their reaction. If it’s one time out of 10, I probably don’t share any more bad news, because I don’t know what’s going to happen. And I think that level of trust, I think, I think it was, well, a couple people mentioned, you know, what’s okay to say or not say? How do things work around here, like those kind of things, I think have a foundation in trust. If I can get a consistent reaction. If I make a an off color joke and I get a negative reaction, I know that’s not appropriate, right? If someone else does the same thing and the group laughs, okay, I have learned, but that behavior has to be consistent for me to trust it and to feel comfortable showing up with myself in the culture that’s formed, and that happens over time. You know that takes you. Don’t just I think a leader can default to trust, but for individuals, they need to see some consistency before they truly trust that this behavior is okay here, right? And that’s everything from freedom to fail, suggesting, you know, new ways of doing things, questioning why certain behaviors or certain activities are being pursued. All those things take time for people to trust. Okay? This is the way it is, and I can now opt in and participate.
Michael Hunter 08:53
The basing culture of what people react to can be challenging when we don’t know, unless we can crawl into their heads, which I haven’t figured out how to do yet without asking them, and even then, we may not get the actual answer of, are they reacting in the way they do? Because that’s what the culture really is, because that what they’re really comfortable with, or because that’s what they feel they have to do to fit in?
Ross Smith 09:22
Yeah. And I think it’s, it can be both. It can be both. There’s unnatural acts, because the culture is a certain way, you know that, okay, this is a very buttoned up, organized culture. That might not be my default behavior, but I know how to act, you know, at work or wherever it is in that culture, I myself will get buttoned up before I present myself into that group. So it’s not you know, and I think to me, if you can shape a culture that people feel is more authentically them, you’re going to get better. Results. So that goes all the way into the hiring process to say, Okay, this is the, you know, we want a startup culture. We want an innovative culture. We want to a rigorous, logistical culture, whatever that is can feed all the way into the hiring so you you interview for those attributes that you’re going to look for in the culture.
Michael Hunter 10:24
I know you’ve dealt with this a bunch. Johanna, how do you suss out where people are on that spectrum of I’m 100% on board with what’s going on, and the other end of this is horrible, and I don’t know what to do about it, or how to speak up.
Johanna Rothman 10:42
So a lot of that has to do with how free do I feel to take the various actions that I might want to take, and that that is a cultural thing I am. The reason I have been a consultant for a very long time is that I always feel as if I have total control over my actions, and I think a lot of people do not feel that way, so that’s why I feel uncomfortable. On their behalf, we each have the choice of how to act based in this whether or not we have a consistent culture. So Ross said something really important. He talked about the consistency that allowed us to trust other people. And I think that that consistency is often what matters for for people who feel they might not have power, so I always, I just take my power, because what else am I going to do? This is this has worked for me over my career. It has not always worked for everybody else, and I I am not saying that everybody has to feel the same freedom I feel, but I think that when, when we talk about speaking truth to power, it’s all that freedom about how we might feel confronting the culture that we we work and live in,
Michael Hunter 12:22
and when you say that you take your power, I know that it’s not you’re bowling your way in like a going to the china shop and forcing everyone into your way. Is that you have a you’re very skilled at centering yourself and then entering a space in a non threatening way, and then can do amazing work in changing the way that that space is working. That seems really key for the productive culture
Johanna Rothman 12:56
well, and I think that even a culture that wants to stay more or less the same. Always has an opportunity to think, what might we want to change here, or what might we want to change there, without thinking that will totally change their culture. And I have, I do have a little I am very frank and blunt and direct. However, that’s in when I say, not in, in the actions I recommend my clients take. That often we need to take baby steps to figure out where we actually want to land. So if I explain here’s here’s the situation, here’s your data that says, here’s the situation. Now let’s generate some options. Let’s generate something that might work for enough people that that is all about a culture that is willing to consider change, and might not be very skilled at changing yet,
Michael Hunter 14:09
this, I think, Jeff, you have run into many, many times people are bringing you in explicitly to change the way they work and to adjust their culture. And yet, I know that much of the time they aren’t expecting the change that you’re about to bring.
Jeff Griffiths 14:27
Yeah, well, I mean, we the interesting thing for me in organizations is that we used to have this view of the organizations as these kind of static machine things, right? You could control all the pieces. Everything’s a cog in the wheel. And everything we know from the science and the complexity of organizations tells us that that’s, frankly, it’s bullshit. The the so when, when I, when I’m in an organization, I’m always interested. One of the very first things when we say. Down with with senior management. If someone pulls out an org chart that tells me something about the organization, because the org charts about compliance, it’s not about how the organization actually works. And so, yeah, the the, the interesting thing is that the it’s quite often in the situations where we’re in where the the senior management actually has no idea what the actual culture in the firm is, or what’s actually going on outside the boardroom, because they’re not listening, or they’re not tuned into it, or they don’t want to hear what’s what’s really happening, and the the culture is going to happen regardless of what the of what management says or writes. It’s all about what management does. And if you want an engaging culture, if you want an innovative culture, if you want an organization that adapts and thrives, management has to be willing to give up control. And by giving up control, they actually gain control, because they’re allowing the organization to be all it can be, as opposed to limiting it by putting people in boxes and stuff like that. That’s the hardest thing about the work that we do, you know, in terms of, because we’re competency geeks, right? So it’s, it’s, how do you get the most out of whatever competencies actually exist within your four walls, all the latent skill that’s there? It’s got nothing to do with where someone lives in an org chart and getting managers to understand that and embrace that is the hardest part of the job.
Michael Hunter 16:49
How did you do that? Rebecca, in all your time at ThoughtWorks, how did you keep track of what the culture was, where you were trying to shift it and help everyone deal with all of that.
Rebecca Parsons 17:02
Well, I think there are a couple of things, you know, Russ mentioned a big part of it, which is, how do you, how do you screen when you’re hiring people, and, you know, that’s, that’s where you get the tension with, you know, nurturing a culture through growth is, how do you indoctrinate people into the culture? And part of that comes down to, what do you really want to achieve? You know, what? What is the purpose? I mean, I’ve heard many people say that it’s sort of the rituals or the ceremonies that represent the culture, but many of those ceremonies don’t scale. And so one of the important things is to step back and say, Okay, why was this ceremony so important to us? What were we trying to achieve? And if we’re now double the size or 10x the size, how can we achieve that same outcome, but with a different ceremony and and, I think, I think that’s an important part of it when, when you’re talking about growth, because it is, it is easy to lose a culture if you bring in too many People that are not aligned to the culture. Because, although leadership, not necessarily management, but leadership, does a lot to shape a culture, there’s also this thing called critical mass. And if you’ve got enough people who are not aligned to the culture, and it’s, it’s, it’s less a number and more a degree of influence that that can veer a culture away, perhaps to something that they you don’t want. It doesn’t take you know when, when, when Ross was talking for for example, it doesn’t take too many people laughing at off color jokes before people decide, Oh, it’s okay to be rude to whatever group of marginalized people or and and the more influence those people have, the greater the ability that they have to potentially de. Grade a culture now they are the same goes the other way you you can improve a culture and through that as well. But if, if the culture, as it exists broadly, and I agree, cultures are not static. They will evolve, although very often there, there’s a there’s an underlying principle that that supports the culture, and that tends to not change as much. I change.
Rebecca Parsons 20:45
But one of the things is you have to be intentional, and you have to be connected to to the individuals that are doing the work and the ones that have influence, because that’s the only way you know what’s going on, and that’s the only way you can start to notice, hey, wait a minute, there’s something going wrong here.
Michael Hunter 21:09
How do we decide? Did anyone open this please? How much the culture is going in a direction that doesn’t fit for me, versus the culture is going in a direction that’s not what the company intends, and yet it’s where the culture wants to go. Because whatever reasons versus the culture is going in a toxic direction, and we need to stop this now.
Johanna Rothman 21:42
Well, a question for clarification, yes, what level of person are you discussing here?
Michael Hunter 21:52
Let’s talk about both someone high up in the organization who theoretically has a lot of power, and someone at the individual contributor level, who may not believe they have much power at all.
Johanna Rothman 22:06
Okay? Thank you. Rebecca, please continue.
Rebecca Parsons 22:10
Well, I would say it goes back to what are the underlying principles that are driving the culture here, it might be innovation that’s important. It might be notions of inclusivity which are important. There, there are different underlying principles. And I think that’s where you start to make the determination of is this? Is this going in a toxic direction where I have to stop it, which means it’s going against the commonly accepted principles that underlie the culture? But there are, there are going to be times, particularly for individuals at the at the individual contributor level, this is less common, I would think, at a at a leadership level, where you’re just not going to fit, you know, some people, if we take innovation, for example, some people are very good at following a recipe and doing what they know how to do. And I know this is what good looks like, and I know how to do this, and that’s great. And they completely freak out if all of the sudden you take the recipe away from them and say, just go, go do it. And it’s like, no, I can’t. Some people just are not wired that way. And that kind of person would be very uncomfortable in a free for all innovative, entrepreneurial, risk taking, fail fast, kind of environment. I say it’s less likely for leaders, because unless, unless you sort of got dropped in from the outside, you don’t get to a leadership position by being not a natural fit for the culture. It just shouldn’t happen that that way, but it is. I I’ve seen it where an individual is very good at what they do, but they just, you can tell that they don’t. It just doesn’t fit them, and they should be somewhere else.
Johanna Rothman 24:53
I’d like to do a little bit of Yes, and for that, because I think that. There’s, I think that when you are talking about is also a long term commitment to the viability of the organization. And that means we can have short term commitments to a specific approach, a specific recipe framework, whatever it is, but our long term commitment is to the viability of the organization. And with all of your experience, I suspect that a lot of a lot of what you have seen as long term commitments to the viability of the organization requires a lot of experimentation and risk taking. However, I would say that some of my clients have wanted a long term commitment to the viability of the organization, and they thought that meant they had to manage change that the fewer changes, the better and when, and that’s when I often see a reluctance to confront other people on on the kinds of things that they say and how they treat each other, and that can create a toxic organization. So I have been in in toxic organizations, because management all wanted to be nice to each other, and they all had to agree on a way forward, and the way forward was for a long time, as opposed to, let’s do this for a month and See what happens. So a lot of these organizations say they are committed to long term viability, but if they don’t have a way to manage interactions among people, some of those interactions can really bring the organization down. Now, I have zero tolerance for any kind of jokes that make fun of of other people, right? I have I can make fun of myself for being short, and all of you here could make fun of me for being a short because I am and it leads to some very funny situations, but talking about people because they are disabled or because they are of a minority of some in some way, shape or form, that does not fit for me at all, and that, to me, is a toxic way to discuss human beings in the organization. So while I agree that the principles behind our culture matter. I think it also matters even more how we express our differences with those principles, especially when things change.
Ross Smith 27:58
I’ll weigh in just with a quick example in real life. So our AI first team is located in Microsoft customer support, and as we were recruiting to see him, you know, I was very clear up front that this is sort of a startup mentality. We you know, the technology is moving very quickly. It’s ambiguous. There’s not a lot of direction. It’s going to be a lot of experimentation, freedom to fail, freedom to ask for forgiveness rather than permission, and you’re just kind of on your own, exploring. Now, a lot of our folks came from the world of customer support, which is very measurable. Like, how many cases do you take a week? What is your average throughput? What is your customer satisfaction ratings? So lots of red, green, yellow boxes every week that know exactly where they’re headed, how they did. And so I was very clear about that upfront, like, Hey, this is going to be very different. And you know, I had a few people say, well, that’s not for me. I like the red, green, yellow, knowing where I stand. And so as a result, the people that we have on the team, it’s a very strong, experimental, curious, innovation seeking culture, because, you know, we were clear up front. And so just to, just to weigh in with a quick, real world example, it’s been just a really fun we’ve been in around for about seven months, and it’s just been a really fascinating experience to see how quickly a very different, unique culture, because we sit in the middle of support so everyone around us has red, green, yellow, and so it’s been really interesting to see it shaped so quickly and how it it really is exactly what we envisioned.
Jeff Griffiths 29:55
Yeah, I guess I’ll jump in quick as well. We’ve seen it in. Now give two quick examples. I got one organization we’re working with where new leadership was brought in specifically to change the culture, because the organization was floundering. It was a manufacturing fabrication operation with a horrendous safety record, and you know, so they were sending people, you know, home hurt or to the hospital or whatever, almost on a weekly basis. And so new leadership was brought in, and the specific mandate was, we’re going to turn this around. And the focus yet they turned around operationally. It took a while, but the focus was on, we’re going to we’re going to address the safety issues. No one’s going no one’s going to get hurt here anymore. And they focused on where my involvement comes in. Was the notion of individual competency, verified demonstrated competency, and don’t care what your ticket says, don’t care what you know, where you learned it, how you learned it, show me you can do it to a standard that’s been agreed on. And you know, over the course of time, their safety record, they’re now running zero accidents. And while this has been going on there, so their safety numbers are improving, but they’ve also in in in concert with that, they’ve improved their quality numbers. They’ve improved their productivity numbers. They’re making money now where they weren’t before, but the focus is still on I don’t want anybody getting hurt here, and we’re going to have all the conversations we want. We’re going to address this as a team to make sure no one gets hurt. And so the time it took for the new leaders to come in, and the number of kind of mid level managers who wouldn’t get on board with this new approach, who got turfed, you know, because they had to, they had them, this is the way it’s going to be right, and be very, very firm about that. It’s a really interesting organization, you know. And I’ve got another example of an organization where, again, it was floundering and, and, you know, that’s gone through some significant turnover and new leadership again brought in to specifically address and change the culture to want to performance. And as a result of that, some of the folks that are still there are thriving in that environment. They love it. Some of the folks who could not self select it out, but the culture was driven again. These are relatively small organizations. It’s a lot harder to do it if you’re talking a mega Corp, but the commitment of the leadership team and when there was pushback, the ability to say, no, no, we’re we’re going, we’re doing this, and we’re going to find a way to make, to make these necessary changes that became part of the it turns into this, the way we do things around here, and the whole idea of the of both Organizations, we’re going to learn how to do this collectively, right and and learn our way to a solution. And the likes the the culture or the from leadership was, you know, this is a new way we Our survival depends on it. We want to go in this direction, and if you’re not capable, if you’re not comfortable going in this direction, that’s okay, but you don’t belong here. And you know, and and allowing people to self select out, and then bring in people who who do fit right. And because, if you’re again, if you’re trying to make massive change in an organization and completely flip a culture that was very, less a fair, very, you know, let everybody do what they want and say, No, we got to do things right. Because we don’t want, in the case of one client, you know, we don’t want people going home missing pieces of their body anymore. That’s, you know, like you can’t compromise on that. And then there’s, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s some of the how and the nitty gritty stuff, yeah, that’s a collaboration, it has to be. But the core piece was, was driven from the top with new leadership, because the old leaders could not get it. So maybe off topic, but I think that was it’s been a really, a real eye opener. I’ve been working with these guys for about five years now, and the. The data that we’re collecting, and this is in a unionized environment, which is really tough, but they’ve embedded competency, active competency management at all levels of the organization, and they’ve embedded that into the collective agreement. Now this has never happened before in any industrial firm I’ve ever worked with.
Michael Hunter 35:19
Thank you, Jeff, that was 100% on topic. As we wrap up, I’m curious from each of you, what has caught your interest today that you’re going to go and explore and experiment with after we get off? Let’s start with Ross.
Ross Smith 35:41
Was hoping to go last I get more time to think
Michael Hunter 35:45
everyone else.
Ross Smith 35:48
All right. Well, I thank you, Michael, that fascinating conversation. Great to hear the different perspectives sort of on the same topic, and then mapping those to sort of what I’m experiencing and trying to do. I think the, you know, I would say, almost universally, I agree with everything everybody said, you know, it’s great. It sounds like there’s some tremendous experience. Everyone clearly has thought through this, or experience this. I think it’s a fascinating it’s a fascinating topic, and and and investment area that not every leader pays attention to. I think someone had said that, you know, the org chart doesn’t, I think it was, it was you, Jeff, the org chart doesn’t define how an organization works. It defines compliance, which is absolutely great. We strive. We kind of came up with a didn’t really invent the term, but egalitarian culture is really what we’re after in this org. It’s a small team and really trying to it’s pretty flat, and really make it so everyone’s on equal footing and and so being very deliberate about that. So a lot of the things I heard today were very informative as I think through what we’re trying to do on our team and how we’re trying to operate. And I think, you know, I personally am a big believer that investing in this and being deliberate and about what do you want, and making sure everybody knows that. And what I found with our team is is, you know, I certainly started out that way, and I’ve been, you know, here a long time and done a lot of the same things over and over and over. But what I’ve seen with this culture, because there’s such different perspectives, you know, an example is people, almost the whole team does a one on one with each other, right? It’s not just a management thing, and that’s something I wouldn’t have thought of, or wouldn’t have designed, but it has bubbled up to be sort of part of the culture, and so I think a lot of this, a lot of the things that people shared today, I really am going to think through. And you know, how does that apply to what to what we’re doing? So thank you all for it’s a wonderful conversation. Hopefully I talked long enough to y’all had time to think of your answers. But Michael, thank you for including me here. This is fantastic.
Michael Hunter 38:23
I’ve been happy to have each of you here today. Rebecca, let’s go to you next.
Rebecca Parsons 38:32
I think. Well again, at first, I agree with Ross. This was a fascinating conversation, and I loved that we brought different perspectives, but the alignment with our with our individual experiences and and perspectives, I think, is important. One of my big takeaways is just reinforcing the notion that you can let culture just happen, but it’s far better to be intentional about it and to decide, as as you know, as Jeff’s examples were showing, we’re Going to make safety a priority. And, you know, and that, and it was a deliberate shift that was decided intentionally. And I think it’s that intentionality, that there, that really comes through. What do we want to achieve, and why? And what are the the cultural norms, the expectations, yes, the messaging, Words matter. How are we going to get the organization properly aligned to what we’re trying to achieve so that we. Can be intentional about the culture that we are creating and then nurturing.
Michael Hunter 40:09
Thank you. Rebecca, let’s go to Jeff next.
Jeff Griffiths 40:12
Yeah. So I mean again, lots of lots of good stuff, the the open conversation and constant conversation, up and down and across the organization, I think, is one of the critical pieces, particularly when we’re talking about change and what comes through. You know, through the examples and everything else, is something that I think Peter Drucker supposedly said sometime like 50 years ago or more, that culture eats strategy for breakfast, and it still does, always did, and you know, it so it and so leaders, I often get bogged down on strategy, and I think they need to, they need to focus first and foremost on the culture, because the strategy will evolve on its own, and The good people will figure it out. But it’s the way they get go, about getting there, that’s the culture and, and I think that’s cool. So some of the stuff that folks are talking about, I think it’s great. I’ve, I’ve been taking notes and, and I’ll be, I’ll be bringing some of this to to my own work. So it’s great. Thank you.
Michael Hunter 41:21
Thank you, Jeff and Johanna,
Johanna Rothman 41:24
well, I I had this insight as Rebecca was speaking, and then Jeff actually said it, which is even better. The Insight was, when we are deliberate about our culture, that’s actually the formulation of our strategy, and when we focus on the individual people and their health and safety, we create an organization that can work for everybody who is able to work in the organization, right? That’s that confidence thing you were talking about. So I’ve been, I’ve been reading a whole bunch of books about strategy and culture and all that stuff in preparation for my next book, and I, I realized I now have the the organizing idea. So thank you all very much. You all helped me write my next book. So this is great, yes, and it’s, it’s based on culture eats strategy for breakfast, because that’s it has been true since Drucker said it, and it’s still true now and I will stop. Thank you.
Michael Hunter 42:30
Thank you all. I know Jeff has to leave like any second. Yes, thank you for amazing and enlightening conversation
Speaker 2 42:38
today. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks everybody. It’s great to meet you. Have a good rest of your week. All right,
42:45
thank you. Bye, bye.