Transcript
Michael
Whether you are feeling burnt out, overwhelmed, or that something isn’t quite the way you know it can be- you are not alone. I hear the same from leaders every day. Good news: it’s not your fault. The real issue isn’t how skilled or experienced you are. It’s the parts of you that are tucked away, invisible and inaccessible.
On Uncommon Leadership, we explore how to find your balance, aligning personal fulfillment with business success, creating authentic teams, and cultivating the resilience necessary to move beyond simply surviving today’s challenges into thriving. I am Michael Hunter with Uncommon Teams, and today we’ll uncover fresh insights into what it means to lead with resilience.
And joining me today is John Gates. John is an author and founder of Salary Coach, where he helps C-suite executives and senior leaders negotiate higher compensation packages without risking their job offers or future relationships. John’s unique approach, born from his extensive experience in corporate recruiting, consistently helps his clients secure 10 to 20% more in their pay packages, even in challenging job markets like we all are possibly enjoying or fearing today.
Welcome, John.
John Gates
Thank you Michael, it’s so nice to be here with you.
Michael
I’m excited to have our conversation today. When did you first recognize that integrating your whole self, bringing that into everything that you do, might be a valuable approach?
John
I think maybe 20 years ago or so. I’ve been a recruiter and a recruiting leader for 30 years. And about ten years ago or 20 years ago, I should say ten years into my career journey, I was really starting to make good money. But I realized that I was more on the introverted side on the Myers-Briggs scale of things. I’m an ENTJ. I’m just kind of barely on the introverted side, but I had a job where I had to be extroverted all day long. When you’re a recruiter, you’re picking up the phone. You’re calling people that you don’t know all day long, getting rejected all day long. It’s a great job for an extrovert. I found myself at a crossroads of burnout, really, Because I was becoming more introverted. When I go home, I’d be exhausted. And I realized that I needed to shift the way that I was doing the job and how I was interacting with people. I’m really more of a strategist, so I was able at that time, just to take a step back and say, you know what? I’ve been doing the job the way everyone else says I should do it, and I’m going to do it the way I should do it. The way that plays to my strengths.
And so as an introvert, I’m really, really strong, one on one with people. I can talk to them. I can understand and empathize with their situation. I’m not just throwing things at the wall to make them stick. And that ability to embrace that part of me really transformed how I approach the job. And eventually I became the head of recruiting for multiple Fortune 500 companies, leading teams of people.
And I realized along the way that some of the best, most successful, executives that I knew that ran large teams were themselves introverts. And it’s okay to be who you are and to find your own special recipe for success. And as I started thinking about launching Salary Coach a few years ago and building out a consulting practice to help people negotiate their pay, that strength of working one on one with people, and the strength of being able to think as a strategist and customize my approach to an individual situation like really helped that business quite a lot to grow. I mean, it’s incredible. What’s going on.
Michael
How did the people that you were working with react when you made that shift from playing an extrovert by day to showing up as more of your authentic introvert self?
John
Yeah. I think, some of my bosses at the time, got concerned that I was calling fewer people than some of my more extroverted peers, but they pretty quickly let it go because I was able to show them that while my call numbers were down, my closure rates were higher, and I was able to tap into empathy that some other folks weren’t able to to get to, for some reason, I was just really good at connecting to people on a personal level and listening to them carefully. Over time, this really helped me to become a good salary negotiator on the other side of the table, negotiating on behalf of companies. So I was able to quickly find the middle ground and what was going to move and what wasn’t going to move for both sides of the equation. The hiring manager and the candidate found that middle ground. I started training other recruiters, not just how to negotiate, but also how to sell.
Some of the more extroverted recruiters that worked for me would often just spill out this giant list of selling points, and they would do that with the same person. And I had to say, “Well, hold on, here’s a new way of doing that: Try to discover what it is that they’re trying to fix. What problem are they trying to solve when it comes time to change jobs, why are they doing? And if you know that, then you can sell them what they actually want to buy instead of what you think everyone else should do.” So it’s really shifted me into more of an others-based, selling style and others-based negotiating style and down the road that was foundational for Salary Coach because I teach a system of negotiating that is win-win, high collaboration.
When most people think about negotiation, they think it’s a duel to the death, high stakes game of chicken, high risk, high conflict. And that’s why most people actually don’t negotiate, because that’s what they think negotiation is. If you can take this sort of system that I’ve been talking about with lots of listening, watching for clues, thinking about what leverage that you’re building, building a collaborative conversation instead of a conflict where you’re throwing out a high number, they could say no to things like that more introverted style has really blessed me through the years. And so I’m grateful that I was able to find a way to integrate that into myself and my work just to kind of accept who I am. And every style has its own strengths. So now, like when I’m listening to my clients, I teach them the way I do it, but I’m also paying attention to how they approach conversations, their style.
And I try to adapt what I know to work into their own natural style, so they don’t have to pretend to be fake to get a good negotiation done.
Michael
As you are working with your clients, how do you build a place where they feel safe and empowered to bring their unique, authentic self into the conversation with you, and then into the conversations that they’re having with whoever they’re negotiating with?
John
I think that’s a really insightful question. Thanks for asking that. To tap a little on some of the things I just brought up. I think most people avoid negotiation. I know that because I’ve been the guy on the other side of the table. They avoid it for a variety of reasons. Most of it has to do with fear.
They’re afraid of damaging relationships that are important. They’re afraid that they’re going to have to be somebody they’re not. Everywhere you go, like when you read about negotiation tips or negotiation advice, it’s all about standing your ground and insisting on your value and your worth and things like that. And so for most of my clients, a big barrier for them is to; they have to; they’re imagining that they’re going to negotiate.
They’re going to have to be somebody that they’re not. They’re going to have to be this super high risk tolerant, aggressive person because that’s what they think negotiation is. They think they have to reach for the monitor and grab somebody by the throat and choke a good offer out of them or something like that. And so they’re actually quite relieved to discover that they don’t have to become that person.They can still be a nice person.
I think most people are really nice people. And they want to be paid fairly. They’re not sure how to do this without putting an offer at risk. And so like the stakes are too high, the risk is too high. I don’t want to be that kind of person. And all these are obstacles.
So early on, I spend a lot of time with my clients teaching them that they don’t have to change who they are. They can be exactly who they are. Their temperament, their personality. They don’t have to embrace a high risk strategy. And in doing so, it just kind of lets all the air out of the balloon like they can realize now, that they can be their authentic selves in this process.
And when their authentic self, like the side benefits are, you’re relaxed, you’re calm. If you’re naturally a person that values relationships and you’re afraid you’ll risk relationships, then guess what? You’re not going to have to put relationships at risk in this high collaboration method.
So I have to reassure them for a while, because most people just believe everything they’ve been told their whole lives about negotiation. And so I’m telling them that it’s different. And at first they don’t believe it. So they’re testing the theory in their next phone screen or next time they’re interviewing. They’re trying it out, to see if it’s going to work. And they’re, they come back to me surprised. And it makes sense up here in their mind. But in their hearts still somehow they think they’re going to have to be a lion tamer to think, you know, to get what they need.
And here’s the problem with negotiating is most people change jobs five, six, eight times in their lifetime. They’re a beginner, a beginner, and they’re facing off against somebody like me who has, you know, I’ve either personally negotiated or overseen 75,000 job offers in my career.I was recruiting, I would be extending 5 or 6 offers a week. So, you know, when you’re in that environment, you’re naturally reluctant. You withdraw. So getting little samples of success, trying on something new, a new way of doing it, proves to your heart that it’s going to work. And then once the belief starts to grow, then the confidence grows that the level of anxiety that you feel just relaxes in the process.
Hopefully, that answers your question.
Michael
It does. And the answer to my next question may be obvious, at least from the candidate’s side. So what you find is the business value, creating these cultures where people feel safe and empowered and share their true authentic selves, both from the person, the candidate, and from the company doing the hiring?
John
I think this is a great question. So you’re right that the benefits to the candidate are obvious. The average client that I work with is bringing home 10%, 20%, sometimes even more than that enhancement, and of course, that kind of offer enhancement, it’s going to change their lives. At some point recently I asked a question, if you got an extra 10% in your next offer package, what would you do with it?And I gave all these possible options. It was a poll. 90% of the responses said, “I’d pay off some debt.” The debt is absolutely crippling. They’re not thinking about investing the money. A few people were, but most people are just, like, overwhelmed with debt. And so were you thinking about sending your kids to college, or you’re thinking about just making ends meet?
In a tough economy, having extra money is hugely impactful. But on the business side, companies that make fair offers and good offers and offers that are appealing to employees, they are able to retain those employees for longer. They feel accomplished. They feel respected in the process. So when I’m negotiating on behalf of companies, I’m coaching managers not to lowball and short term goal is to get somebody as cheap as possible.But it doesn’t help you if 18 months later you’re, you’re replacing the person that left and now your whole team is in disarray and your key project is not going to be delivered on time and things can be quite short sighted. Now, that said, when you’re a job seeker and you’re negotiating what you’re trying to achieve, there is to get all the money that they would be willing to give you, not going to twist their arm and make them feel the pain.
And there’s a lot of money they’re willing to give you that people don’t ask for. When I was early on in my recruiting career, I started tracking my negotiation savings. This is kind of an interesting story. I’ve been laid off a couple of times, and, you know, once you’ve been laid off, it’s a terrifying experience. You’re in between.You’ve got a house payment, a car payment, people depending upon you. Now, the engine of your monthly budget is gone. And it’s a terrifying place to be. So I know what that feels like. And when you’re a recruiter, you’re particularly vulnerable because if the business you’re working for slows down. You don’t want to add more headcount. In fact, they’re cutting. So you’re out on the skinny branches like you’re going to get laid off more often than not if you choose recruiting as a specialty career like I did.
So after being laid off a couple of times, I decided, you know what? I’m going to insulate myself from that a little bit. How can I do that?
Well, you know, I’m a pretty good negotiator. I can start tracking how much I’m saving the company. So I set a goal every month to pay for my annual salary, every month in negotiation saving. And then when I became a recruiting executive over large recruiting teams, I set; I trained the other recruiters to track. I taught them how to do it and set a goal to cover the entire recruiting department budget with negotiation savings from the team.
So, yeah, so I started doing this and I started realizing just how much people were leaving on the table. I would get an offer approved like this. They would say, “Well, okay, John, you can go as high as 160,000 and you can have a $15,000 signing bonus, but only use it if you need to.” So I’d open the negotiation a little bit lower than that.
Maybe I could close at 152 without using the signing bonus. So that was $8,000 in salary saved and $ 15,000 in signing bonus saved. And it would go into the spreadsheet. Now, if I closed at 160 and offered the $15,000 signing bonus with the hiring manager, would they have cared? No, they wouldn’t have. They were already willing to part with that money.They would have been thrilled to get that talent. They picked that person. They want them to say yes.
And so if you’re negotiating with a new boss over your pay, they want you to say yes. You have a little bit of leverage here if you know how to handle it right, you’ll be able to discover what’s still on the table and not leave it there.
But in that case, the person just left $15,000 on the table, plus another $8,000 a year every year. That compounds over time. Like, that’s a lot of money. I don’t want people to leave that anymore. So it’s interesting how this all comes to, you know, full circle for me. I started thinking about this in the middle of my own layoff process.And that was the impetus for salary coach many, many years ago.
Michael
It occurs to me that another business value on both sides, which may be less obvious, especially in the moment, is that through the entire negotiations, both sides are getting to see that true authentic self of the candidate. Which feels better for the candidate. They know that they’re able to stay within their preferences and within their,how they work best, rather than having to spend a lot of energy flexing out into what they think they want, how they need to present themselves.
So they have all that extra energy to focus on the concessions on the job, relationship that they’re with, everyone that they’re talking with. And to really evaluate, “Is this going to be a good fit for me or not?”
And for the business, they get to see that true authentic self for the candidate all the way through it’s way less likely, Day One, the candidate shows up and, “Wait a minute, I thought we hired an elephant, we’re getting an apple. I don’t know what’s going on.”
John
Yeah. I’m so glad you brought that up, because I can tell you there are several things that can derail that offer. Because I’ve been in that situation before as the recruiting lead, bring in an executive for a bunch of interviews,they go through the interview process and they get selected. It’s like, we really, we really like Michael.We think he’d be a perfect fit with the team. And his vision for X is like, right on. And, excited about hiring Michael. And then Michael shows up in the salary negotiation as a completely different personality. And there have been many times in my career when the hiring manager calls me saying, “I’m getting a little concerned.In fact, I’m not. I’m more than just a little concerned. I’m very concerned that the person I thought I was hiring is not the person I’m hiring.”
Once that kernel of doubt enters the hiring manager’s brain, it’s hard to get rid of it. It really is. So I’ve seen offers rescinded. I had to rescind them myself because somebody wasn’t their authentic self in the interview.
Maybe they were in the interview; they were a different person in the negotiation.
You can damage everybody. So you have to be really careful not to, not to do that. I’m glad you brought that up.
Michael
Is there maybe business value in companies coaching their candidates on how to negotiate so that both sides; and how to negotiate in a way that you teach where you can more likely stay authentic all the way through on both sides?
John
Yeah, I’ve never really thought about it that way. Because in my experience, it’s almost like companies; it’s rare to find a company in a hiring manager that’s willing to be assertive about what’s; they often don’t see the alignment between what satisfies an employee and what is good in the long-term interests of the business.
And here’s why I think that’s the case.I mean, this is just a theory on my part, but I started recruiting in the 1990s and it was about that time, it seems that businesses became more and more short term focused.They are focused on their quarterly deliverables, the quarterly financials, especially publicly traded companies that are accountable to Wall Street investors. And it’s gotten worse and worse over time as stock trading platforms and things like that offer you quicker and quicker access to buying and selling a company. And the senior executives up at those companies are also compensated often with stock vehicles. So fluctuations in the stock price based on what the quarterly results are driving decisions. I think that’s why we’re seeing so much of a layoff culture develop over the last 20 years.
So I think a big obstacle probably is that companies don’t think long term like they used to. They are thinking about short term windows. What’s happening this year, next quarter.It’s hard for senior executives to endure the political backlash of thinking long term. So if the company does the right thing here and pays people in the right way, it might have the effect of suppressing financial results in the quarter, which moves the stock price.
Who’s the CEO’s boss? It’s the investors. It’s the board of directors who were appointed by investors.Investors aren’t all happy. And it puts that CEO in a real hot seat where they have to explain to the board that this is a good thing. And it’s the expectations for short term financial gain in the stock market are just so strong. I’m not sure how we get out of it.
That’s just my thinking off the top of my head here.I have no idea if I’m right or wrong, but that’s kind of the way I see it.
Michael
Yeah. Thank you.
How do you help the people that you’re working with, whether it’s companies or individual candidates, find their way through all that change, uncertainty and overwhelm that seems to be life these days?
John
People that I’m working with in the Salary Coach business are in the middle of a vast change. They’ve either decided that they’re going to change companies and they haven’t done that yet or they’ve already they’re already in between. And so regardless, there’s going to be a massive change. And I think for people that have careers and they work in the world of work, an upheaval in the company that you’re going to be working for is huge.
So, it’s hard to kind of nurse people through that. But I think I start off by telling people that you’re not alone. And that you don’t have to do this by yourself.
That not alone, you know, is helpful to people, to know that they’ve got some support through this transition, that they can vent to me. I have my clients all the time complaining about how bad recruiters are, how broken the job search process is.And so I’m able to talk them off that ledge of depression, at times.
It feels like I’m partially a therapist, partially an educator, a coach.
I try to teach them what’s going on on the other side. Why is it that they interviewed three days ago and they haven’t heard anything? They get a hopeless feeling. Maybe they’ve been forgotten, or now they’re being ghosted again or something like that.
Well, I can come up with 2 or 3 possibilities of what’s going on. It’s like Duck State. I had a client call me today, not understanding why she hasn’t heard for a couple of days after an interview. They promised her that they were scheduling the next round and she hasn’t heard anything.
And I had to say, “Well, you’re interviewing with the C-suite. Those People have very, very challenging schedules and if they’re trying to bring you in-person, they got to find a day when everybody’s going to be there and somebody is not on a plane and somebody is not in China and in the China time zone and all of that.” And so sometimes I’m just bringing my insider perspective to the craziness of somebody’s life.
But that period of work transition is one of the worst changes that people will go through. It’s tough because you don’t know the future, and your whole future kind of depends on it, where your family’s going to live, how much money you’re going to make, are you going to love your boss or hate them? These are the uncertainties and the unknowns that drive people crazy in that spot.
Michael
And again, there’s the indirect assistance you’re giving them and helping them to remain in their authentic true self, which gives them more energy, more reserves to deal with all the change, uncertainty and everything that comes along with it.
John
I think that’s true. And even just knowing what to do at every step, not feeling like you have to make it up along the way, that you’re going to be victimized along the way somewhere, that helps you to conserve your energy as well.
Michael
If people would like to learn more about your particular way of negotiating from either side, what’s the best way for them to connect with you?
John
There are a couple of ways. I think the easiest way is just to drop me an email. We can get to what your needs are and see what solution might be the best fit. So john@salary.coach is the perfect email address. That’s an easy way. You can also go to the salary coach; SalaryCoachAcademy.com is my website.
And also you could buy the book. I just wrote a book on the topic called “Act Your Wage.” That’s a pretty low cost way to get familiar with how I do things. And there’s ways of contacting me through the book as well.
Michael
And we’ve got chapter five from that book for people as a free download, right?
John
That’s correct. Yeah. I sent that over to you and anybody that’s listening to this that would like to see a sample from the book, which contains actual, real practical stuff that you can use right now. They can contact you or get it through your website and download it. That particular chapter is how to use arrange in the phone screen so that you don’t paint yourself into a corner too early in the process.
Michael
Great. And I’ll have that link in the show notes as well.What would you like to leave our audience with today, John?
John
I think we’ve been talking about it all along here, and it’s just a reassurance that negotiation, pay negotiation, is a skill that everyone can be learning. It’s not rocket science. Once you know the particular steps, what to say, how to say it at every step, and that you can be yourself in the process, you do not have to be somebody that you are not.
You don’t have to become aggressive. It does not have to be high risk. In fact, it’s best if it isn’t.
So just knowing that that’s possible, I think, should relax people that are in transition and should; if you’re listening to this and you’re not in transition today, you probably know someone who is and you can reassure them that they don’t have to be somebody that they’re not.
Michael
That’s kind of my entire message. You don’t have to be someone else.
John
I love that we’re aligned on that, Michael. That’s awesome.
Michael
If you’d like to learn more about how to do that with salary negotiation specifically, and in your interactions with teams and your coworkers, peers, people up and down your management chain, then hit John and I up. We’d love to hear from you and help you achieve being who you are and everything that you do.
Thanks, and have a great day.
TLDR;
Ever feel like you have to be someone else to succeed in negotiations?
Do negotiation conversations make you want to hide?
Then this podcast is for you as Michael Hunter from Uncommon Teams and John Gates, founder of Salary Coach, reveal how negotiation doesn’t have to be a power struggle.
In this episode, you’ll see how negotiations can be an opportunity for mutual gain. If you dream it, you can ask for it — but here’s the trick: you have to know how and when.
According to Gates, being authentic during the negotiation process can be powerful. It can help you build win-win agreements, develop a deep understanding of the other party’s needs, and achieve better outcomes—without sacrificing their personal values or professional relationships.
This conversation is nothing short of a masterclass and will forever change the way you approach every negotiation.
Tune in now, so you never leave money on the table again!
Want to take control of the compensation conversation? Visit:
Website: https://SalaryCoachAcademy.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johngates-salarycoach/
Here’s the 5th Chapter from John’s book: “Act Your Wage.”
Download the free pdf with this link.