Michael Hunter
Hello!
Welcome to Uncommon Leadership.
I’m Michael Hunter with Uncommon Teams.
Today I’m talking with Dr. Kumar and Amit Ramlall.
Dr. Kumar is an investor, entrepreneur, medical specialist, and respected business advisor. He has a distinguished academic background and extensive practical experience. Amit Chintan Ramlall possesses a unique gift for helping leaders transform their challenges into opportunity.
His own journey out of the autism maze helped him become an expert in the human mind and human achievement. He integrates the vast knowledge he’s gained from reading over 14,000 nonfiction books with his unique insights to fill, to fulfill his deepest desire of helping individuals discover and manifest their life’s purpose.
Together, Kumar and Amit founded the Chintan Project to help clients leverage their unique purpose and unique challenges for greater impact and rewards. They specialize in helping clients, typically business owners, solve their people problems, the ones above HR. They help them either love their businesses again or exit so that they love their lives again.
That’s great.
Welcome, Kumar and Amit!
Kumar Ramlall
Thank you, Michael. Michael, thank you very much for having us. It’s great to hear. I’m Kumar and Amit has autism and so types on this card and I’ll let him explain how this works for you.
Amit Ramlall
Great to be here with you, Michael, for our audience today. I have autism that still affects my independent speech.
I type on this card and my dad reads what I am saying. I use this card to help me speak. Much, Michael, as you use glasses to help you see. That’s all. When my dad sounds like a robot, that’s him reading what I am typing. When he sounds half-human, that’s him speaking for himself.
Michael
Thank you for the explanation, Amit. I appreciate your unique way of communicating. My sister has always been, has even more challenges verbalizing and communicating than you are. So, I understand, empathize, and appreciate that you found a way that works well for you to help you communicate and do what you’re here to do.
Amit
Thank you, Michael.
I might say that we all of us, I get to stand on the shoulders of giants, and the giants come in many different forms. For me, one such giant was Glenn Doman and the individuals at the IAHP who helped me to learn to read and to learn to speak as I do.
What is the IAHP? They are a private institution in the USA that has a way. They are iahp.org. And they have a system that leverages the natural order, the natural way in which children develop and use that same pathway to help children and adults with challenges. We use that in our business advisory work. We have learned how to help our clients work with natural order the way that they and their people would naturally work and leverage that to help their businesses. We think it’s way easier Michael to work with nature than against it. It absolutely, that’s a great lead in to our starter question, which isn’t really a in your journey, collectively, individually, the seeing people as people and learning to leverage their unique gifts, the best accomplish your collective and individual goals.
Michael
What has been your biggest struggle?
Amit
Mine is staring at you and our audience right now, it is my residual challenge speaking independently, I am working at this and still clearly have those challenges. I had more medical challenges, et cetera, earlier on, but this is my next growing point.
Michael
Is there anything beyond what you’ve learned from the IAHP that has helped you move through and work with that challenge?
Amit
Absolutely. I came to know early on that there are is a principle by which nature operates. Nature, this universe of ours, is way too efficient for anything to exist without a reason. Reason for being. Purpose, as I call it. And I have a certainty that if I, if you, if your audience is here, there is a,
Kumar
I’m not going to have a hand by time he’s done tapping.
Amit
And there is a reason Michael, if everything exists on purpose, it must necessarily mean direct color, direct color, that our challenges must exist on purpose too, doesn’t it?
Michael
Yes.
Amit
For if it exists, there must be a reason. And I would argue that we grow most effectively and efficiently using the same patterns as occur in the rest of nature at the border of support and challenge. So that challenge, therefore, exists so that we grow and evolve maximally.
Michael
Absolutely. And this works everywhere through, that’s what drives evolution is meeting challenges, drives innovations in physical, mental, intellectual behavior. And it’s
Amit
Work with nature, not against it, Michael.
Michael
Absolutely. Yes. I learned a long time ago that when something just works when I just do something and it works the first time, I don’t really understand why it worked. I don’t know how to replicate that. And if I happen to, it always just works after that, then I’m getting lucky or maybe unlucky since I don’t know what I’m doing that’s causing that to work. When it doesn’t work in whole or in even a little bit, then that gives me a little edge to grab onto and play around with and figure out, okay, how can I hoist myself up here a little bit?
Kumar
I hear you and many have written and spoken about this and you’re expressing it very eloquently, Michael, that when, if it were to just work, where’s the lesson, where’s the next growth point?
And I might add a slightly different perspective to that. And it’s the following: is that in everything that apparently works, there is a not working that we are blind. to Does that make sense? So there, you would be conscious to the working part and unconscious to the not working part. And we would argue part of this becoming unblinded, part of this being able to see the whole, is in fact in that moment when it seems that you’re top of the world, oh the hand’s off the screen, but when you see you’re top of the world, it’s what is not working. And that might seem as though it is raining on the parade. It might also be the way to truly be graced by what is as opposed to what you wish it would be.
Amit
Because it is in these moments. of a part absolute triumph that there is hidden challenge and wait for it. It is in those moments of challenge that there is, with certainty, the seeds of opportunity.
Kumar
So we’re not inventing a new way of dealing with the world. We’re just saying wait, when you’re top of the world, what is not working?
And then when you are apparently bottom of the world and the depths of the valleys, where is the light, right? Like where is the upside? Does that make sense?
Michael
Yes, it; two things. One, thank you for the new point of view. A new point of view is the best gift anyone can give me. So you’ve made my day. And two, when this brings to mind that when I’m out hiking, all the time, I’ll get to a top of a ridge and I think, this is the last ridge. And always, once I get to that ridge, I discover, oh, there’s another one. And then I get to decide whether to go follow that one or stay where I am or turn around and go home. And sometimes that next ridge may be hidden by a cloud or rain or weather or something else.
The people in front of me, there’s always some somewhere further to go.
Amit
A mentor of ours said it this way: if you wake up one morning and think you’ve got no challenges, you’d be well advised to go down on your knees and pray for one.
Michael, mentioning prayer brings us to an interesting aspect of your life that I don’t know. If your audience knows about your background with your family as pastors in Sierra Leone, we would love to hear that, and so would your audience, because in those moments, I bet I guarantee, in fact, so not a probabilistic bet, that there were moments of apparent bliss and moments of apparent chaos, guaranteed.
Michael
Absolutely. I was born in Sierra Leone because my parents were there as missionaries with the United Methodist Church, and the way that faith does their missionaries, it’s not the stereotypical white person showing up telling the indigenous people, hey, your faith is all wrong, you must convert over to our one true God and everything or you’re going to be, just have a really unhappy time.
So what I was immersed in from the time I was conceived, because I was conceived while they were there, was they were there to help people who were already, not just Christian, but just also United Methodist, to how do we help you live your faith even more the way that you want to be? And so for those nine months when I was growing, and then the year or so after I was born that we were still there, I was surrounded by my parents being around all the time. My dad’s office was upstairs in our house. My parents took me everywhere they went, and all the people that we met with were not just happy to have my parents there, they were super excited to have me there as well.
So this constant welcoming and joy of life and being and encouragement of who you are and how do we become more of that is fundamentally grounded everything that I do and the way I approach. And I’m absolutely confident that’s a core reason of why the work that I do now is helping leaders in software understand who are they at their core and how do they bring that true authentic self into everything they do in a way that also works for everyone that they work in interaction, because it’s not just, I get to show up and my light goes out and blinds everyone else. It’s that I want my light and to help my clients help their light to radiate out and warmth and encourage and light up everyone else’s light. And so that we all are bouncing off and reflecting and reinforcing each other.
Amit
Thank you. Thank you for sharing that, Michael. I can see how the mission that your parents were on now translates into the world of software and technology and those you lead and lead.
What we were discussing before, I wonder, where was the chaos in those moments of apparent order? Not necessarily for us to answer on this call, but, but, Michael, there is always homework.
Here’s why. We are very cognizant when we help our clients, that they understand that they are transforming one challenge into another, just one that they are more inspired to solve. When we helped a client this week to negotiate their final sale of their business, they knew we helped them know what their next challenge was. In this individual’s case, it was to start his foundation that his grandparents had wanted to set up when they had moved to the U. S. from Italy. He was now going to be able to fulfill a generational aspiration.
Interestingly, it wasn’t the dollars that was the greatest permission he was getting. It was the freedom to choose how he invested his time. His currency was that of time.
Kumar
Does that make sense? He’d made money off his business over the years. But he was in the business, even on the business.
Amit
And we taught him that there is a level above working on the business as, as Michael Gerber talks about. There is a level above where the business itself is the product.
Kumar
Does that make sense? It’s shifting the levels of which he was interacting with his business.
Michael
Yes, and understanding that deeper level of that we want to focus on is so critical to every step that we take forward, whether it’s big ones, like your client selling his business and starting a foundation, or small ones, like what am I going to focus on for the next 10 minutes?
The more we understand what those underlying factors are that pull us forward and really, that we’re yearning to go discover and learn more about, the more we can optimize and focus our efforts. And the more easily we can prioritize and choose what to do moment to moment.
Amit
I dare say that sometimes our apparent lack of focus isn’t on the next activity, but on which challenge is most inspiring and most important for us to be solving.
Michael
Yes.
Amit
We are in a way stuck in that toddler who wants to solve the problem.
Michael
Yes.
Amit
And we are built to do that. When we lose sight of the challenge that calls, we miss out on the opportunities for maximal growth, for maximal progress, for maximal impact, for maximal rewards.
Pick the challenge that inspires, and sometimes it’s easy to adopt someone else’s challenge that isn’t intrinsic to us, and we end up with the multitude of societal fads that wax and wane, not even over generations, not even over decades, but over a few years, a few days, a few hours, a few minutes sometimes.
Michael
Yes.
This is one reason I focus so much with my clients on who are you at your core and how are you feeling called to express that.
Because the more we understand what that foundation is, there are a bazillion different ways we can express that, and a bazillion different ways we can use that to help the others around us become more of what they want to do and be. And so understanding that is crucial to being able to have satisfaction, joy, love, everything else that you hope to get out of this life.
Kumar
You’re correct. As you say that, I know from your work that you you help your clients see how important it is to interact with their people, the others on their team in meaningful ways.
And if we may add another layer to that interaction, and it’s the following, sometimes it is argued that an employee, so let’s use that word, is a cog In the wheel and it gets thought of in a derogatory way, right? You’re familiar with that, right? Like you’re not just a cog in the wheel. What if each person is a cog in the wheel for each order with whom they interact?
Amit
What if, Michael, you are the perfect cog for your client, as we are for ours. What if that employee who is at least in part for the missing hair on the CEO’s head? What if that is the perfect cog in the wheel for that leader? What if that individual holds the lesson for the next step, and that does not mean that the employee has to stay or be allowed to stay.
Because sometimes the lesson is in the parting. Sometimes the lesson is in choosing which challenge to take on. Whether, Michael, you go seek to explore that next ridge or not. It’s okay to not explore it, and it is to go forth, but to be aware of the opportunity that exists in that moment requires a willingness to accept. That employee is the perfect cog in the wheel, not just of the company, but in the individual charged with interacting with them.
Kumar
Because if you will as soon as you have interaction with someone, we would argue that’s, because it exists, there is a purpose, right? There is a reason. Because this universe is too efficient, you’ve heard us say this, for anything to exist without a reason. It’s just way too efficient for it to exist. And so that, that interaction is, exists, means there’s a reason, and we could choose to take the lesson, not take the lesson.
We could choose to take the challenge, not take the challenge. In fact, we do that every day in our day to day lives. We decide there’s challenges that are worth it, and challenges that are not.
Amit
Some individuals will return their coffee twice to Starbucks because the cream wasn’t poured just right. They choose to take on that challenge.
Kumar
That might be a bit ridiculous, but the point is that you choose which ridges to take on.
Amit
And there is something else, that is operating in this choice, Michael, and it is this: the challenges you choose to take on are the ones that you perceive will you get what you most value, consciously or unconsciously. Let’s stick with that Starbucks customer. They, you might say, are so meticulous with their coffee. But what if they are avoiding a sales call, a difficult conversation with someone else?
So perhaps coffee is what’s important, or perhaps It’s their strategy to avoid something else. We are constantly in strategy. The awareness that we are in strategy is what we are campaigning for here if you will.
Kumar
That makes sense, right?
Michael
It does makes sense. I like this example for many reasons. One is it highlights that when we say challenge, oftentimes we think about the big life scale, life changing kinds of challenges.
However, challenges can also be tiny. Do I accept that this coffee isn’t being quite exactly the way I want, or do I stand up for myself and hold that boundary and go ask for it to be perfect? Both answers are fine. It’s which challenge do I want to take on right now of standing up for myself and taking it back and asking for it to be better?
Or the challenge of accepting that life isn’t perfect and that this isn’t going to make a big difference in how I approach my day. Both are fine. Both are equally good. And that idea, the challenge and strategizing scales from the big giant things that we think of when it comes to challenging strategy.
Kumar
Our client this week of exiting his business, right? He didn’t get everything he thought he wanted. Nor did the other side, right? Yeah.
Michael
Yeah. And so we always have the choice to scale bigger or smaller to, so that challenge and strategy can feel safe and accomplishable to us right now.
Amit
So it’s not only the what of the challenges that scales with what matters to us or not in a moment, but you are describing additionally the magnitude of the challenge that we take on.
Kumar
So sometimes we are in the midst of, so sometimes we help our clients exit. Sometimes we are acquiring a business ourselves.
And we have had two circumstances in the last couple of months where there was someone eminently capable of taking over from the owner operator who would not allow themselves to be called CEO, President, Chief Operating Officer, anything like that. And the reason was, is that title was scary and overwhelming to them.
And, interestingly, we learned from our European cousins and both of them and we called we called one the managing director and the other one general manager and that worked. They were okay to take over that company with a different title. And where that was in their own heads. These were eminently capable individuals, ready and bursting at the chute to do the job, but not the title. And I think sometimes what we choose to take on has got to do with what’s going on in our own heads, right? In our own perceptions of capability.
Michael
Yes.
Amit
I would say and that applies, Michael, to the leaders and owners that we, us two, both interact with and to each of the individuals that they lead also.
Michael
Yes. And I’ll go even farther and say it’s always what’s going on inside our head and heart and body and spirit that causes us to choose one thing versus another. And sometimes digging into all that understanding what’s going on and resolving those conflicts and letting go of whatever fears, false beliefs, things given to us from others that aren’t right for us anymore. Sometimes digging into all that is what’s exactly right and most helpful for moving through those. And sometimes all it takes, like in this example, is a slight reframe from outside of something very tiny. And then all of that inner conflict that seems so big and scary and impossible to get through just falls away.
Amit
Yeah, so the person who became the general manager called us in a panic a few weeks after the acquisition was complete because this is because she was introduced as the CEO. She went to meet with a vendor, so she wasn’t ready to be told yet that they had figured it out. But now, she has, but has kept her same title.
Michael
This has been a lovely conversation today, Kumar and Amit, what else should I ask you?
Amit
This has. It’s been a wonderful conversation. And as we wrap up, I would love if your audience gets deep insight that they are here is because there is a reason. And that because there are challenges exist, there is. A reason. To the extent that we get and own, that we allow ourselves to learn to grow so that we grow ourselves, our impact and our rewards.
Michael
That’s lovely. And if our audience would like to follow up on you about that journey and how you might be able to help them in that growth, what’s the best way for them to connect with each of you?
Kumar
The best way is at our website, chintanproject.com, so C H I N T A N project. And they can say we have valued people in our lives. You mentioned this earlier, Michael, about, a different way of thinking. We have valued people who have stress tested our thinking and we seek to stress test the thinking of our clients because it is true that it’s the same way that the engineers do it for buildings and for structures, but I think to submit and to subject ourselves to having our thinking challenged is one of the greatest levers of growth, isn’t it?
Michael
For me, it definitely is. Yes.
Kumar
This has been a privilege. Thank you so very much for having us on, Michael.
Amit
Thank you, Michael.
Michael
Thank you both.
And thank you, audience, for being with us today. Please let us know what viewpoints have we given you today, and how might we help you choose your next challenge? Let Kumar, Amit, and I know.
Thanks and have a great day.
Kumar
Thank you very much.
Amit
Thank you.
Michael
Thanks for joining us on Uncommon Leadership today.
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