TLDR;
Imagine being constantly caught off guard by problems you never saw coming, while carrying the weight of leadership decisions that could make or break your organization.
It’s a tough spot, and frankly, a sad reality for many leaders who’ve unintentionally built walls, missing crucial insights that could save them millions.
Welcome to another powerful episode of the Uncommon Leadership Podcast! I’m Michael Hunter, and today, I’m honored to speak with someone who’s witnessed this costly pattern firsthand: Dan Tocchini.
Tocchini is a true leadership transformation expert, with over 35 years of experience helping executive teams break through seemingly impossible barriers.
In this conversation, he reveals exactly how siloed processes create dangerous blind spots—blind spots that can cost millions or, even worse, derail your entire venture.
He also tackles the hard questions head-on: How do you balance openness with authority?
How do you create cultures where people feel genuinely confident to take risks?
And most importantly, how do you turn obstacles into opportunities through what he calls “fascination”—a deeper level of curiosity that transforms breakdowns into breakthroughs.
You’ll also get a sneak peek into his three pillars of effective leadership and his proven change management framework that explains why a surprising 40% of your team sits on the fence during transitions—and, crucially, how to win them over.
This isn’t just a feel-good leadership theory. It’s a practical roadmap to prevent small problems from becoming million-dollar crises. So tune in now!
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Key Learnings from this Conversation:
- Isolating aspects of your leadership or team guarantees costly surprises and missed opportunities.
- Openness about challenges empowers your team to deliver solutions you’d never find alone.
- Don’t avoid discomfort or difficult conversations.
- Foster a culture where genuine inquiry, not rigid authority, drives rapid learning and pivots.
- Your actions, not just your words, build the trust and define the culture your team will embody.
- Unite your team around collective success to navigate conflict effectively and achieve breakthrough results.
- A leader’s discipline to care, even when others don’t, is vital for long-term team health and preventing future issues.
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Want to get in touch with the speakers?
About Dan Tocchini:
Dan Tocchini brings over 35 years of experience transforming executive teams for companies like Microsoft and ESPN. He champions a no-fluff approach, focusing on courageous leadership and creative conflict resolution. Dan Tocchini believes a leader with a clear vision is never held hostage by circumstance or history. Get in touch with him: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dantocchini/
About Michael Hunter:
Michael Hunter is the founder of Uncommon Teams and the host of the Uncommon Leadership Podcast. He is dedicated to exploring leadership principles that empower individuals to lead with authenticity and impact. You can connect with Michael Hunter by clicking on this link:
https://uncommonteams.com/work-with-me/
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Presented By: Uncommon Change
Transcript:
Michael Hunter
Whether you want more innovation more easily, you’re feeling burnt out or overwhelmed, or you simply know that something isn’t quite the way you know it can be. You are not alone. I hear the same from leaders every day. On Uncommon Leadership, we explore aligning personal fulfillment with business success, creating authentic teams and cultivating the resilience necessary to move beyond simply surviving today’s challenges into thriving. I’m Michael Hunter with Uncommon Teams, and today we’ll uncover fresh insights and what it means to lead today. Joining me is Dan Tocchini. Dan has been helping leaders bring some magic to their teams for over 35 years.
He has worked with executive teams from Interstate Batteries and ESPN, to Smarty Pants Vitamins and Impulse Space, as well as nonprofits like Homeboy Industries and Defy Ventures. Dan gives a no fluff approach by helping transform leadership teams without any pixie dust, just courageous leadership, creative conflict resolution, and relevant restructuring.
No conversation is too difficult. No situation too conflicted because a leader with a vision cannot be held hostage by circumstance or history. Welcome, Dan.
Dan Tocchini
Thanks, Michael. Great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Michael
I have been looking forward to this conversation all week. Me too. Dan, when did you first recognize that integrating your whole self, bringing that into everything that you do, might be a valuable approach?
Dan
Well, I think it came after a number of failures where I thought that separating, for instance, my family life from my business life, not including them at all, or I, you know, just siloing aspects of my life was working. I decided to, you know, experiment with breaking down those silos and that became a multiplier effect.
And it’s been, you know, it’s been quite profound both for myself over the last 40 some years I’ve been in business. And for those that I have the privilege of serving.
Michael
What signals were you recognizing that indicated maintaining those silos might not be having the effect you wanted?
Dan
Well, I, the main thing was I was being surprised often. Things would occur and I would be caught by surprise. And then when I debriefed the breakdowns, I realized that those things had revealed themselves way before they became a problem.
And, that was really quite, you know, I say, I remember thinking at one point, wow, I could have seen this coming. If for instance, like my wife would’ve said, well, you know, Dan, there was this, or there was that, or a partner would say, you know, in debrief again, here’s something, you know, that we might have paid attention to.
And I had, if I hadn’t been sharing what was going on, I hadn’t been including them in the process and so it got, it started getting evident that they should be involved. And in fact, oftentimes people that you don’t think are going to be crucial turn out to be, I would say, vital to the life of whatever you’re doing.
And, I can’t get to them. If you think about it, I can’t get, you can’t get to them if you’re, if you’ve isolated them.
Michael
You are right that when we isolate, we prevent people from helping us in the parts of our life that we’ve cut them off from. And I find the same as you that I am often surprised by where advice or suggestions or help or insights come from.
It’s often not the; not from where I would expect.
Dan
Yeah. Well, and I’ve found that the things I keep from them are the very things I need assistance on because I’m afraid to be vulnerable to expose my Achilles heel or, you know, appear weak. And so by being able to talk about those things, being able to find language to put on it and express it opens up an opportunity for others to contribute.
To me, as I lead, and that it is interesting, I had a young protege I was training and he helped me think through something and, one day I asked him, how are things going? He said, well, one of the most empowering things I’ve experienced over the last week is that when I was able to help you think through this and spotted things you didn’t see, and it was interesting ’cause it, I thought, well, it’s interesting ’cause I see you now, you know, as a real resource. Whereas before I thought I was training you, but in fact, yes, I am training you and you are training me. You are helping me see what I don’t see. So very powerful time, what through with him and I, and that’s occurred multiple times in my career with leaders, if it is just amazing what kind of resources at the table if, I’m disciplined about being clear about the mission, holding that insight, keeping that aim up and making it the most important thing. Well then why not look at my weaknesses if that’s gonna strengthen the mission.
Michael
And in addition to that, being open to the information that might be coming up to you from channels where you might have believed that you’re only ever pushing data down through. Yeah. Yeah. How much information are leaders today missing out because they think they manage these people, they’re helping these people do their job and they’re not allowing for the possibility that those people, their people that they’ve hired onto their teams for being smart and genius and brilliant people, might have something that could help the leader do their job too?
Dan
Well, I, you know, I think it gets filtered through, if I open up, if I get exposed, whatever isn’t working or what my blind spots are, somehow they’re going to, not respect me anymore.
Really the key I think there is, what I wanna do is create a culture of curiosity, of humility, because if we’re learning, we’re gonna pivot quickly. That doesn’t mean I’m not clear. It doesn’t mean I don’t take a stand. It doesn’t mean that I’m not willing to make a mistake. But I’m certainly gonna be wide open and curious and if I’m gonna have any kind of succession plan.
A succession plan comes out of an idea that what I’m doing through the culture is actually training the people I’m working with to see things that they would normally not see. That I know I see because of my experience, because of the many times I’ve failed and come back. Well, that’s a gift to them.
And then their fresh eyes is a gift back to me. But there’s no doubt in my mind, and I know there’s no doubt in my team’s mind. That I’m the one that’s gonna make the ultimate decision. That, or you know, that I have the, you know, the power differential in my favor, gets my business, or I’ve been hired to run the business or whatever that is.
I don’t need to press that into their, you know, that’s not a badge I wear like a sheriff. That’s just a respon- that’s a responsibility I have both to the organization, you know, to the board and to the people that I lead, and I want to hear what they have to say. And also, I get a lot of buy-in by that.
I get a lot of good ideas. I get a lot of buy-in. I get people, the creativity, the resource at the table. And I’m much more confident when I do it this way to delegate and know that what I’ve delegated is most likely gonna get done. And if there’s a problem, it’s gonna come to me much earlier than if they feel like they can’t talk to me or they have to have it packaged just right, or they have to always be successful.
Michael
How do we find that balance between being open and vulnerable, asking for feedback, and also holding the line that ultimately I am the one making the decisions, I’m the one responsible for the outcomes if they go south, I’m the one in charge to put it, perhaps coarsely?
Dan
Well, you know, I think it’s a contextual issue.
What context am I in? I mean, if we’re in a, you know, I want to hear feedback, but because I’ve heard your feedback may not mean I’m gonna take action on it if it doesn’t fit what I think is best for the company. I’m gonna be straight about that. I think a lot of it is being able to language, put words on what I’m thinking in a way that people can understand, they can see how they’re connected, how we’re connected in the process.
And what’s most important is that we win. That we actually have it, we push the ball over the line. it’s not most important that I’m right. It’s not most important that you are right. It’s most important that we win. And that’s a, I think that comes from orienting people to that by just the way you’re with them, by them actually experiencing what’s most important to you.
You can say, it’s very easy to say, this is most important for me because it’s the company, but then if I go off and act on personal agenda, that is obviously disadvantageous to the company. I’m sending a message. I, you know, as a leader, I think it’s really important, you know, at least for me, it’s been vital to pay attention to how I’m living with my team.
Am I living congruently with the values and mission, purpose and vision that we’ve stated? And if I’m not, where can I get that? Where can I correct? Where can I openly express my, you know, what’s working, what’s not working, and what’s wanted and needed? I work to keep it out of a personal identity conversation and onto what’s wanted and needed.
You know, like what’s wanted and needed here, who can best provide that? Let’s have that. And if I’m thinking like that and I’m thinking like that in my discussions and conversations, people are gonna live in that conversation. They’re gonna know what’s gonna make a difference. They’re gonna know how to frame breakdowns.
They’re gonna have a better sense or orientation about how to work with me and each other and what’s valuable, right?
Michael
I like that. Focus on what’s wanted and needed ’cause it takes away the value judgments of- I do this thing, it’s a bad thing or it’s a good thing. My colleague does something else, and that’s a bad thing or it’s a good thing.
They’re all just things. They’re all great in certain context and it’s incredibly unuseful in other contexts, and if we’re always focused on what’s wanted and needed to hope the team move forward and achieve their goals, as you said, then the vulnerability of seeing the things I’m good at aren’t really useful in this situation are maybe easier, and also the vulnerability and saying the things I’m good at are exactly what you need in this situation is also easier, which can sometimes be way harder than saying I’m not. I don’t have a lot to bring to the table here, because that involves believing in ourselves and stating out loud that we are exactly what’s needed in the situation.
Dan
Yeah, exactly. I’m involved in a collaborative project now. I’m a, I literally said at one point, look how many of you have done this before? And, very few of them, I could tell they hadn’t done what we were doing. We’re collaborating on a project and we were planning the project out and it was clear that they hadn’t done this very often, if at all. And I said, I’ve done this quite a bit. So if you wouldn’t mind, I’d like to frame it and then get your input. I think it would give some, I think I could help give context or at least make it productive. And they were all go, please do it. Right. And I know they were open to it because I didn’t just come in and force that.
I checked in, we were talking, I could tell there was a void here. They didn’t know exactly what to do. I’d done this before, I could put words on it. I wasn’t doing it like, oh, let me do this. How about I frame this up? And then you guys tell me what you like and don’t like What you think is gonna work, not work, and let’s reason through it.
And that worked really well. And what could have been a two or three hour meeting ended up being an hour. And very productive. But I know and, it’s had a lot to do with just me saying, Hey, I’ve done this before and not that I know all the answers, but I can give some context and then we can together, we can create and there was some really good contributions that took the thing in the direction I wouldn’t even have thought of going.
Right. Which is really fun. And then everybody was excited about, in fact, I got a call the morning after that meeting and there was a gal who was just excited about what she, what occurred for her during the meeting and she wanted to talk about it, which I, to me was just exciting. ’cause she was calling me and I could tell we had buy-in and things are gonna happen when you have buy-in, stuff happens.
Michael
And what you did there of starting by centering yourself and then taking time to enter that particular metaphorical room part of the conversation is what enabled you so vastly turn the conversation from a lot of people trying to muddle through something that they didn’t have much expertise with to you offering to bring all of your expertise and zoom it right along.
Dan
Yeah, and then I knew they had a lot to give, right? And each one of them are really accomplished. They just hadn’t done this particular thing before. So it was about how do we get all our talents working together, how do we align? And that came a lot easier when somebody just stood up and said, “Hey, why don’t I take just the shot at this and then let’s go from there?”
I have a habit of, if there’s a void, I’m just gonna step in and see what I can do.
Michael
That’s a really great example of how letting people shine through their expertise moves everyone, everything along faster, more smoothly, more vastly as we were talking about earlier.
Dan
Yeah. that’s what I keep saying, to your point, that’s why they’re there, right? You have ’em there because they’re good at what they do and probably better in many ways than I would be. I just want to get that resource on the table and you know, I think that comes from making enough mistakes to know that I don’t have all the answers and, when I’ve thought that way, and believe me, I have, I’m sure you can tell I’m fairly forceful.
That’s gotten me into unnecessary suffering.
Michael
That I can imagine. I’ve had some of those experiences myself on both sides. So, how Dan, do you help? Do you build cultures yourself and how do you help your clients build cultures for themselves where people feel safe and empowered to bring their unique talents to everything that they do and feel safe saying, Hey, I’m perfect here, but use me in this way right now?
Dan
I look at it, I don’t usually talk about safety. I talk about confidence. I want people to feel confident to take risks and know that they’re going to be supported and they’re gonna be challenged. And there are a couple key elements. I think first, one needs to learn to master themselves, which is an ongoing process, a dynamic process of like, you know, are you in, are you connected with what your strengths are? Are you connected with when your strengths are weaknesses? Are you connected to the different things, if you will, the kinda yinyang, idea of your shadow? Are you connected to and have you really come to terms with it? And are you willing to keep continuing to come to terms with your shadow?
The things that kind of, deteriorate your relationships, work against you, et cetera. Do you have the kind of mindset that can help you make those things allies for you? So in other words, I have, I am quick to form an opinion. I’m sure obviously pretty opinionated. And so I wanna be aware of that.
I’m pretty confident in my opinion. So I wanna also, I wanna also be open and reflective of other people’s opinions. So knowing that about myself helps me engage because I can be a bully or I can be a bull in a China shop and just forge ahead, particularly if I get into survival. So I’m familiar with what are the pre, what are the signs that I’m moving into survival?
So, mastering myself that way is a valuable tool when I’m in there working with a couple, you know, with a teen and I’m married and, to have a marriage work. I’ve been married, I’ve been with my wife 50 years, 45 years married and mastering myself has been crucial in being able to stay connected to my wife and it’s no different in business.
And before you can lead others, you know, I think that’s vital. If people see I’m wrestling with myself and mastering myself, they have more confidence to follow when I wanna lead, and that opens up the possibility for breakthrough results. And kind of key to that is accepting that I can’t explain my way out of what I’ve behaved my way into.
So taking responsibility in for the results that I have and the stories I am telling myself about those results, being familiar with them, and being willing to challenge those stories in order to look at what’s good, wanted and needed to get to the next level. When people experience me doing that with them, I know that makes a difference.
It invites them to do the same thing. Then, you know, and finally I think the third thing is realizing that what I refuse to face will eventually defeat me. So, you know, and that’s, you know, it’s not the mountain that I face that’s gonna defeat me. It’s the pebble in my shoe. So, you know, that’s that old saying.
So, you know, being willing to recognize. Immediately, the aspects of what you’re doing aren’t working. Doesn’t mean the whole project’s not working, but best to keep an eye on those things. And when somebody addresses them, be willing to look into them and work with them. Because the idea is, if you don’t, those things will grow in their impact on what you’re doing, which will also demand a lot more energy and time and effort and resource from you and the team to overcome if you know, it’s like becoming a bottleneck in your own organization, eventually, if I’m not willing to face the things that are difficult.
Michael
If I as a leader would like to become more conscious and act more, versus the unconscious reacting that I’m starting to become conscious, I may be doing a lot.
How would you suggest I get started?
Dan
Well, I mean, awareness is a key and there are a number of ways to become aware. I mean, we actually provide a leadership training that’s a very intense training over four days called the Revenant Process, and we work with leader’s awareness.
Awareness of what’s going on for them as people, awareness of their impact on others, like how often do you actually check in to see what the impact of your participation is having on those, on the team. That’s one way to get aware. And in this training we do a lot of work with people managing their impact.
Like not only, not just declaring what they’re about, not just having a clear vision, which is very important, but also what impact am I having right now in current reality on that vision with the people I’m with wherever I’m at? Do I pay attention to the signs? Am I tone deaf? Am I, and one way to know that is you get surprised a lot by the, what leaders say to me when I’m working with ’em, I can’t believe how, what a stupid thing so and so did. They’re, you know, they’re just out to lunch. Well, how did they get out to lunch so far? They must have been, there must’ve been some signs before that, you know, you probably weren’t paying attention. It’s that kind of thing, and it requires a certain fascination. With your team and people and the, you know, like that’s really, most leaders are very fascinated with their projects and outcomes, which you must be, but understanding that they, that all happens through a team, through a relationship.
Everything is relational through a conversation because the conversation I’m in with people is the relationship. How fascinated am I with that? Because fascination, if you will, is the true and proper mother of discipline. So if I want something to be sustainable and I want something to, you know, ongoingly produce results, it requires a fascination of about what’s really going on right now.
And current reality is very dynamic. You know, it includes what people do. What they think about what they do, what they think of me or you or each other. All of that’s part of current reality. And being fascinated with it creates a certain discipline and you’ll tend to listen for when things start to go sideways in basically the language people are in.
Right. So if I ask you to do, if I say, Hey, here’s a project. What do you think? Would you like to participate? Well, I don’t know, Dan, you know? Yeah, sure, I’d like to participate. I just wanna make sure, this, I just wanna make sure I’m not taking advantage of. Well, if I’m not willing to explore what that means, I’m gonna find out what that means later on down the road.
So I might just stop and go, geez, really tell me more about this, you know, what you just said, and explore that. Because I might discover something that I needed to know that it, that this person might be a real quick assurance or might be something easy to deal with, or I might have a second thought about how, where this person goes or how they fit on in the project, right?
There’s things like that. So paying attention to those kinds of things, being aware of those things, which is part of my impact, will open up possibilities that I, and creativity and save me energy, as well as even though it might take a little more time in the front end, in the back end, I’m gonna benefit with, you know, with you know, I’m just gonna benefit immensely, you know, in a kind of a quantum way.
Michael
What you are calling fascination seems to me a lot like curiosity. How do those two concepts relate to you, for you?
Dan
I think they’re closely related. To be curious is one thing, like I can be curious and not; not really fascinated. I can be curious about, what’s going on? Just because I wanna, because I wanna feel comfortable.
I wanna look, I want to be involved, but to be fascinated is I wanna know all the details. Like, so it’s a form of curiosity that’s almost, it’s compelling. It’s, it could be obsessive, you know, it’s, I really am, I mean, I’ve had people say, it’s not what you’re making it up to be. I’ll give you an example.
I have a client that I’ve been, I’ve worked with for many years. And about few years in with the client, I noticed that they really didn’t have much of a governance set up in their organization. And I suggested that they set up some governance and I referred one of my partners in to do that, and they got it halfway set up and then they dropped it.
And a few years later, I was working in an offsite with them and I was listening to their CTO talk and I’m not a tech guy, but I’ve had the privilege of managing large tech teams. I mean, I understand tech at a high level. I’m not a coder, but I had the privilege of managing a team of engineers of 180 engineers and I run a tech company, so I can tell when things aren’t right, just by the way people are talking and I was listening to him talk and I asked him about his stack and I said, well, you know, tell me about what, what’s going on? And he said, “Well”. I said, oh yeah, how have you got this set up? How’s it architected? And he said, well, I’m a full stack engineer. And then he described what that was and I said, well, that’s, you’ve just described the upper end of the stack. What about how does that, you know, how do these languages connect with the machine, like the what did you program, because they were, it was, they were throwing bugs and they couldn’t, they were whack, you know, they were constantly, the technical debt was building so they couldn’t implement features, et cetera. And he got, you know, he got really kinda uppity with me and he said, you know, well, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
You’re not a coder. I said, no, you’re correct. But it seems like you’ve got an architectural problem that you know the reason these bugs keep coming, you’re throwing so many bugs and you growing technical debt is because you got problems dissonance between the upper part of your stack and the lower part of your stack.
I understand those principles, but I’m, I don’t know how to fix ’em. I just, as a leader, I’ve seen this many times. We didn’t wanna even engage in it. Two years later, the organization who was, they were very relevant in the market at the time. The market they were in is a tech company. Now I get a call back and the tech stack had gone down.
I mean, their tech, it had gone down. And the issue now with the team was uptime like, how long can we keep it up? Which is horrible because the market’s gonna pass you by and competition’s gonna take you up. So they hired me and I ended up bringing a tech guy in to help them think about refactoring all their code and what they need to do and ways to do that.
And, but I, you know, we had a come, kind of a come to Jesus like, look man, you, know, it was fine with me that she disrespected me. I have no problem. I’m not a tech guy, but I could see what I saw and now we’re dealing with it. And the CEO said, yeah man, two years ago he said this and now they’ve kind of moved this CTO, who happens to be a partner to more of a board position and they brought in a full blown engineer, you know, CTO kind of engineer and understands, architecting, and they’re re-architecting all their code.
That could have been done two years ago if he was just curious enough to see if what I was saying might have had some relevance, but instead, his ego got in his way and he just had no space for it until it got so bad. Right. He didn’t wanna deal with it then now it’s beginning, it’s defeating him in the long run.
It’s that kind of thing.
Michael
Right. It starts out seeming, is it just the way business works? Turns into this is taking the business down in a very short amount of time and takes a lot of work to resolve now. Back then would’ve taken much less work.
Dan
Yeah. And I could tell I was telling the CEO before I even had that conversation in that offsite.
That the CEO was complaining about the CTO, who was his partner, hadn’t been delivering on his, you know, on his, promises on his, you know, OKRs and over a long period of time, I said, that’s not a good sign. There’s, you know, this guy designed the stack. He knows what he’s doing. There’s something up for him.
We ought to check in. And, you know, the CEO was, I think, afraid because he’s not a technical guy and he didn’t wanna lose his CTO, so he was afraid to press too, get too rigorous in the press and even get fascinated with it. Like, it’s not about finding out, you know, it’s not about exposing this guy or embarrassing him, it’s, Hey, how can we get shoulder to shoulder together and get fascinated about what does this mean for the organization? What’s wanted and needed right now so we can continue what we’re committed to and what’s the blocker, what, let’s name the blockers clearly so we can see what we need to put to test here. You know? And that relationship, if it’s not in it, that conversation’s never gonna be had as it didn’t until it’s so vital that you have it, it’s having you instead of your having it.
Right.
Michael
Wow, great. And it’s a great example of how really small intervention can have big impacts. And the earlier we can recognize that the tiny intervention might be useful, the more impact that tiny intervention can have. In a positive way, no less of the traumatic impact. That intervention is likely to have.
Dan
Right on. You know, and I learned that the hard way I, there was a, I ran a tech company before this and I didn’t wanna, I was really much like that CEO afraid to talk, you know, press into the tech guys until our run rate was 450,000 a month and we’re burning up our ramp like nobody’s business. It took me a good six months to go in and start to really try to understand and get, you know, I resisted tech for a long time to really understand what was going on, and that six months cost me about $3 million and the company failed.
And ultimately it cost us about $40 million. And I can’t help but think that if I would’ve been more, not just curious, but fascinated and willing to risk, not, you know, pissing people off and not looking good for the sake of what we were doing, and found a way to articulate that so they could join me.
I can’t help think that we might have saved not only that 3 million, but the company might have broken through. We were just a little ahead of the tech. We might have lasted long time, long enough time to get so where the tech caught up and we could use what, like these large language models would’ve made a difference.
This was 15 years ago. We didn’t have those, but there were other things that might have made a difference then. So, you know, that kind of thing.
Michael
That’s a really clear example of how courage as a leader, the courage to show up and allow our fascination to show itself to be vulnerable in asking questions about what we don’t know, acknowledging that and asking our people to help us understand the parts that we don’t know and well, at the same time as you bring all the expertise, we do have to bear on that quandary is critical to business success.
Dan
Yeah. It’s to your earlier point, it requires leadership. If you’re gonna lead, you gotta be aware of yourself, of your impact, of what’s going on around you with others.
If it, because to the, those are the things that have really sabotage me when I get disconnected. And I don’t want the trouble, I’m afraid of what it’s gonna cost me. I think the middle of the road is a horrible place. I think, you know, I’ve just gonna get run over and you know, ’cause I’ve been there, I’ve done it.
And so I really feel for leaders when they get in into that place. But there’s, you know. My job normally is to come in and say, Hey, wait, you know, wake up here. Look what’s coming down the pipe if you don’t move. And that’s the way you create enough tension, healthy tension to move. Like, look, if we don’t do this, what’s coming?
If we do this, what’s coming? Like, let’s weigh out the prices. Let’s continue to account for what’s, when we’re looking at what’s wanted and needed, what’s the price of what’s wanted and needed, and are we exaggerating? You know what’s interesting? By looking into the worst case scenarios, you can usually create some margin.
Like, wow, I didn’t, you know, I really thought that was horrible, but when I look at it, I could probably handle that if it came about now. Now you’ve got somebody going forward into it, and there’s a whole different way of being together and working together and inventing together that wasn’t present when you’re scared to even look at it. So, a lot of the work is of a leader for me, is getting people to look into what they don’t wanna see and prepare for it, just in case. Like, prepare for the worst and, you know, expect the best, but prepare for the worst. So you’re not– You’re prepared. You have some dynamic.
You’re resourceful, you’re flexible. When circumstances shift and things don’t show up the way you want them to, or you think they should or the way you plan them to be, you know, you’re much more resourceful in that dynamic.
Michael
How else do you show the business value of creating these cultures where everyone is empowered to bring everything of who they are to everything that they do, and engage their fascination and get into these uncomfortable conversations?
Dan
Well, you know, I’m not an altruist. I want you to know that. So I talk to leaders about the willingness to pay prices because you’re gonna pay the prices.
It’s better to pay now. Then to pay later with penalties and interest in that, they’re rightfully cautious because they know if they have these conversations, they’re gonna start to see things they don’t want to be bothered with. Right. I just don’t wanna mess with this shit. So, you know, and, you can, and here’s how it shows up in their language.
I’m not here to babysit these guys. That’s the first side. When I hear somebody say that to me, I know they’re avoiding something. ’cause nobody’s saying, yeah, the vape babysit them. You gotta get the stuff up and you gotta find out what that team member and that team, whoever’s there is made of. And you wanna find out in the most inviting way, but, not in a cowardly way.
It’s like, look, this is important because it, and I’m always bringing the vision in the mission. This is why we’re doing this. That’s why we’re having this conversation. It’s not because you are a bad guy or incompetent. No, in fact, I’m having this conversation ’cause I believe in your competence and I believe together we can find out what’s wanted and needed and you’ll deliver it.
And if you can’t, you’ll find the right people to do that. But our job is to really do that and ’cause we don’t wanna be surprised as best we can. And if we are surprised, we wanna be prepared for it. So that we can, move and use the surprise in our favor. You know, that’s one of the first things I ask.
How can we use this when I’m surprised? How can I use this in my favor? What did I not see? And how can I use this in my favor in i.e. relating to the mission? Now, you start having those conversations, you find out what people are made of quickly and whether or not they’re gonna fit on your team or not.
I think people wait too long to find out. I want that conversation, if I can in the interviews and in the onboarding process, et cetera. I wanna know what these people are made of. How well do they handle breakdown? How innovative can they be? Do they communicate what they need when they’re in it?
Do they hide the breakdowns and try to look more competent? Or are they willing to say, you know, I got a breakdown here. Here’s what I’m doing about it. What do you think? What that kind of thing. You need somebody who’s committed to the mission more than they are to getting by, feeling comfortable, looking good, being right.
Those things are there, not that you shouldn’t have them, they’re there, but don’t let them be bigger than what you came to get done. And a lot of times your being right can make the difference. Just make sure, you know, stand on the validity of the idea, not just being right. And that’s, that has a lot to do again, with managing yourself and being aware of your own mechanism.
So a lot of my leadership and the culture is having people perpetually check into their own machinery and notice if what’s going on is just about their ego or their need to look good, feel good, be right, or be in control, or is it really for the mission and language will usually reveal that. And if you get specific enough with requests about what you need and, like if I say, well, okay, great that I hear what you’re saying.
By when will this get done? Or what do you need to get that done? How long will it take? Like when we get down to real specific questions, we find out. How somebody’s really relating to the issue. Do they wanna just be right about being stuck and they don’t wanna bother with the trouble of figuring it out or, you know, bringing the team in, or are they truly engaged in that process?
And if they are, I wanna get ’em everything they can to get it figured out and I wanna join them.
Michael
What are some examples of how we can start to suss this out in the interview process?
Dan
I mean, I really, I watch how I like to have multiple interview processes with each of the team. Like, like in other words, if you’re coming through and you’re gonna work with us, not only do I interview you, but I’m gonna have people you’re gonna be working with on the executive team or the leadership team, or the middle management team, you’re gonna be working with interview you, hear their concerns and why they have those concerns. Then I’m gonna, I want to sit down and see how you respond to their concerns. Their concerns may not be true. I’m well all aware, but I wanna see how well you can receive them, how well you vet them, how much you look to learn from them, how much you’re wrapped up in just getting the job.
How defensive do you get? You know, it’s just like, I was watching, Robert F. Kennedy the other day in front of Congress getting grilled. I was impressed with, you know, the things, you know, it’s fun to watch Congress. They just, they embellish and they do their thing, you know, and this guy’s going on and on, or this gal going on and on about, you know, how dangerous he is and all these different things.
And I’m, watching Kennedy, and he is just listening. Listening and he doesn’t interrupt her until he gets really clear. Then he communicates, and then I noticed she couldn’t hear him communicate back his point of view, like she just wanted to filibuster her point and he didn’t have to say much. It was really obvious who was the insecure one who really didn’t have an argument.
Right? Like, his argument was, okay, good. Made sense. He was relaxed. He heard what she said, he addressed it. He wasn’t crazy about it, and he was focused on what the issue was, not preserving himself. Which I found to be extremely about a lot of credibility. And I’ve seen a lot of leaders under pressure even when they’re wrong or, you know, it’s not working.
See that it’s not working. Handle it well, make corrections. Like that. Then that’s really what you’re looking for, you know, so you wanna look at how people engage with your difficult questions or when people say something that, it’s a concern that they have. Maybe just how their intuition. Watch how the people respond to it, how they engage it, how they intreat it.
I think that says a lot about their acumen, particularly their leadership acumen. Now, you know, competency is a lot easier to find out. You can go test and check references, et cetera. But if I wanna find out somebody’s leadership acumen and if they’re gonna fit on my team, that’s what I look for.
Michael
We’ve really been talking about this all the way through. Is there anything more you’d like to say about how you help people find their way through all the change, uncertainty, and overwhelm, that seems to be everything life is these days?
Dan
Well, I mean, uncertainty and overwhelm are psychological conditions that every human being is gonna navigate.
And the best way to do that is to be clear one, about what you’re there to com to accomplish, what you’re committed to have happen, both result wise and relationally. Two, be willing to connect with the current reality you are in as it relates to those things. So get a sense of, and don’t be afraid of what’s going on around you that is counterproductive to what you say you want to get done.
In fact, that’s where you’re gonna find most of the new resource. Be willing to look at it, speak honestly to it, investigate it. The more I’m willing to do that, the more I’m gonna discover who my allies are, you know, who’s really on the team, where the resource is and what’s possible. Most people don’t think that way.
Most people won’t go in. I know I’ve done this multiple times. I just wanna see what’s working. Please tell me this is gonna work out. Anything that looks like a breakdown somehow is a problem versus an opportunity. I’m not speaking altruistically, I’m talking about realistically like you’re gonna have to deal with a problem.
So, and usually dealing with the problem advances the cause if you do it well. So how do we do that here? Right. And I can’t emphasize that enough. That’s really where it all happens. That’s where you get prepared for and you prepare the culture for what’s wanted and needed.
Michael
Great. Engaging with becoming fascinated with what seems to be a problem is critical to transforming that into an opportunity.
Dan
You know, it’s the old stoic saying the obstacle is the way.
Michael
Obstacle is the way.
Dan
Ryan Holiday’s book, I really enjoyed it. Young guy coming up with that. That young. You know, and it’s really relevant. You know, I’ve always been a fan of the stoics, and found it to be helpful for me ’cause I have produced a lot of my own problems.
So, facing those problems has brought a lot of self revelation, you know.
Michael
This might be a good point to talk about the free ebook you have for our audience.
Dan
Yeah. The Change Imperative, I wrote that back in the nineties, late nineties or maybe mid nineties when ESPN was being bought up by Disney and the, I was working with a team and there was a lot of change going on.
Right. You know. Particularly, there’s a lot of tension around ESPN was a right to workhouse. Disney was a union house. There was tensions there. Management was going through some tough stuff. There were, you know, there was just a lot of tension, a lot of different tension. But there’s, those were some of the; that was the context, right?
There was a lot going on. So I wrote that to help some of the guys I was coaching. Think about what it takes to make a change and, it goes through a very, like, it’s as best I could, principles you can expect when you’re gonna make a change in any organization or any group of people, you can expect that about 20% of the are I would say, maybe 30%, if you’re lucky, 20 to 30% of the people are gonna be right on board. 30%, you’re killing it. You’re gonna have another 20 to 30% that don’t want things to change. That’s just, we call them the levelers. They’re just not interested in change. They’ve got their fiefdom, they’re not interested in moving into the new possibility.
So, you know, like, you know, we do ERP implementations, people don’t want to put the information in. They, you’ve gotta, they’ve gotta want to do that, otherwise it doesn’t work. You know, that kind of thing. And you got 40% of the people that are on the fence and the idea is that leadership’s job is to get that 40% over here with the 20 or 30% that is on board, and it’s done through a number of different ways.
One, it’s done with how you engage the levelers, ’cause some levelers will convert, but many of them won’t. So you gotta know how to deal with them and that how you deal with them is the message. How you speak to them, the possibility you open with them, how you deal with their recalcitrant, you know, like how do you deal with these?
These folks will communicate to the 40% as well as how you communicate with those who are on board. You want, the people to see this. You want these people who are on board to win. You want them to get the resources they need. You don’t wanna just spend all your time over on the squeaky wheels.
You gotta make sure people are seeing that the resources, the attention, et cetera, flowing over here. Even though you’re gonna pay some attention over here, you’re gonna let these levelers expose themselves and they’re going to either opt their way in or opt their way out. Now that’s tension. So one of the things I’ve learned as a leader is that if you’re not willing to embrace the tension, you’re going to be run by the tension.
’cause your job, instead of dealing, instead of having the vision occur, you’re gonna try to get rid of the tension. That’s a mistake. Because now you’re off purpose. You’re just trying to relieve yourself and the team from the tension. And so you’re no longer paying attention. Your attention’s now to relieve the tension instead of to have the goal occur.
So when you’re in the tension, you gotta ask yourself what’s one needed for the goal? And if it represents more tension, we gotta think about how to do that and articulate it. And it takes, you gotta get fascinated with what it takes to do that. That’s part of the science and the art of leadership.
So that pamphlet, that book, the ebook, it’s about 90 pages, I think, or maybe 118, something like that. I haven’t looked at it for a while. But that’s designed to describe this process, to help you think through it, to give you an idea of, you know, what’s coming so that you’re not surprised, you know, if you know it’s coming.
A lot of times there’s certain things that have to occur. Usually things have to get worse before they get better. And if you know that and how that looks, you can be more confident in the process of navigating it. And that’s what that, pamphlets, that eBook’s designed for.
Michael
That is super helpful.
Thank you, Dan. And for people who would like to connect with you and engage their fascination on the obstacles that they want to turn into opportunities, what is the best way for them to get in contact with you?
Dan
The best way would be to, you can reach me through takenewground.com is one way. We’ve got, you can contact me that way.
You can reach out through email that way, et cetera. I’m on LinkedIn, can reach me there. And Instagram, LinkedIn’s probably better. And I’m happy to take an email, dan@takenewground.com. Love to talk.
Michael
Great. Now I have all those links on our show notes. Thank you. What would you like to leave our audience with today, Dan?
Dan
Well, you said it in the opening. I think, if somebody has a vision big enough, you know, that can call them through the pain of transformation, they’ll never be held hostage by circumstance or history. So the last thing I guess is I always say that goes with that is, keep kicking at the indifference until it bleeds life in yourself and in others.
You know, it’s like, care, learn to care. It’s a discipline. And when people don’t care around you care about the fact that they don’t care, ’cause that’s coming back to haunt you. You know that. That’s really what I’ve leading with.
Michael
I love it. Thank you, Dan, for this fabulous conversation today.
Dan
Thank you, Michael. Really appreciate it.
Michael
Thank you, audience, for joining Dan and I here today. We would love to know, what are you engaging your fascination into? Thanks and have a great day.